On the latest episode of the Rational Middle of Immigration podcast, Republican U.S. Rep. Dan Crenshaw of Texas discusses his perspective on border security, immigration reform and how politics contributes to stasis on these and other issues.

A former Navy SEAL, Crenshaw represents Texas’ 2nd Congressional District, which curves like an emaciated, hunched figure around northern Harris County and includes part of West Houston. On the podcast, Crenshaw tells Rational Middle’s executive producer Loren Steffy that border security must come before immigration reform. Or, as he writes on his congressional website, “border security leads to a better legal immigration system. When we finally secure the border, we can then talk about the next steps for immigration reform.”

Listen below to Crenshaw’s thoughts on how we’ll know when the border is secure and what those next steps might be.

Podcast: Congressman Dan Crenshaw on Border Security, Work Visas and Political Football